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The monger experience: race relations, community, and obligations
- Thread starter phantomkid
- Start date
I whole heartedly disagree @findinit. If there was 'nothing we can do about it' then slavery, Japanese concentration camps, and xenophobia should still be a thing. Well one of them still is but you get the idea. These things can be combated but it cannot be done if we simply label someone as racist and then move on. I recommend you watch this spectacular ted talk about a man who descended into white nationalism and how he got out (link below). What that video and the story of Daryl Davis taught me is that most racism is not one of innate hate towards another race. Usually it is rooted in a lack of understand, isolation, or a need to feel superior. Now for the case of indies/providers the root cause seems to be fear, whether from experience or rumor. What I want to do is to first figure out if my theory is correct or if someone else has had situations similar to @dancingpink which was just inexcusable. Then, assuming fear is the root cause, try to figure out if there is a way to combat it. Fear is the mind killer after all. We all do dumb things when we are afraid, even if the fear is valid, and I want to know how to lessen that fear while not just shutting them off by labeling them as racist and deplorable.
Exactly right to both of you. Prejudice is an innate human psychology that we have think against and not something which we have to proactively do. It is so much easier to label and fear monger than it is to well... not. And to everyone's point so far, this industry is under no regulations but our own and I don't really now what to do about that.
@phantomkid when you present your TED talk on how to convince a sex worker to overcome her fear and jerk you off I will give you a standing ovation.
Racism is alive and well and if you say otherwise then you are just a clueless idiot! Reading your post at first I couldnt pin point what nationality/ethnic background but after reading more I can assume youre african americian. There are tons of provider that refuse to see blacks and yes it is offensive but know that there is nothing you can do about it.. even if you somehow convince her to see you chances are the date would be awkward... end of the day its her body her decision. You just gota chalk it up and move on. And unfortunately there is no solution to this and if there is racism itself would not exist!
To answer your other question, no i am not white or black and I have never experience being rejected by a provider because of my skin color. I guess a big part of it is i see a certain type of indy/agencies that doesnt advertise on the likes of bp/cl etc. however there was a few times that i attempted to but never booked with a few providers that advertise as “No AA or NBA” and told them my nationality and they were fine to see me.
Bottom line, this subject has been discussed on numerous boards and an endless debate but to simply put it, it is what it is and you just gota move on and dont lose any sleep over it...
To answer your other question, no i am not white or black and I have never experience being rejected by a provider because of my skin color. I guess a big part of it is i see a certain type of indy/agencies that doesnt advertise on the likes of bp/cl etc. however there was a few times that i attempted to but never booked with a few providers that advertise as “No AA or NBA” and told them my nationality and they were fine to see me.
Bottom line, this subject has been discussed on numerous boards and an endless debate but to simply put it, it is what it is and you just gota move on and dont lose any sleep over it...
Well first, while I do think knowing your race/ethnicity would help me understand the framework of your mind I don't think your views should be dismissed if you're white. Now that's not for you specifically because you clearly said you are not white. I just want to be careful to not let any white readers think I don't want to hear their perspective. Like I said at the start, I want everyone's opinions. Also, I don't deny that the conclusion may just end up being 'there is no way to fix this and you have to move on'. But I want to try. And yes it may end up not working like you seem to so strongly suggest. But the vast majority of effort that a person does, big or small, ends in failure. So what are our options? You either admit defeat prematurely because the odds are you are going to be right, or you do it anyways. Maybe there is something to be said about the journey even if the end result is a failure. The lessons learned and paths walked on the road to the goal could make up for the fact that the goal itself was not a success. Would that be enough for you? It is at least for me.
I have empathy for your situatio. I have found Caucasians to be one of the most racist people on this Earth. Not all mind you but I've encountered it at a young age.
I also have empathy for not being what her parents wanted for her. That shit is fucked up. I've never experienced that so I can't say move on from that.
However providers. Ik it may be harder to find but many pros are equal opportunity pros. Some probably are racist some biased however I would imagine most don't care.
Also if we are speaking about White people being intimidated part of that is the programming the main media does and while I love rap. That shit doesn't help when they glorify that bang bang lifestyle. I've been in Walmart, supermarkets where white folks are over apologetic. "Sorry Man, sorry. Like I'm not gonna put my paws on you unless you do so first. However I notice black people are never over apologetic.
I also have empathy for not being what her parents wanted for her. That shit is fucked up. I've never experienced that so I can't say move on from that.
However providers. Ik it may be harder to find but many pros are equal opportunity pros. Some probably are racist some biased however I would imagine most don't care.
Also if we are speaking about White people being intimidated part of that is the programming the main media does and while I love rap. That shit doesn't help when they glorify that bang bang lifestyle. I've been in Walmart, supermarkets where white folks are over apologetic. "Sorry Man, sorry. Like I'm not gonna put my paws on you unless you do so first. However I notice black people are never over apologetic.
@Uniquelyme you are touching on a rather sour spot that I do think has to be addressed. I don't think we talk enough about the bad behavior of the African American community. Shifting slightly (very slight shift PLEASE do not let this devolve into a political fight) in my experience liberals regard the actions of African Americans with pity and conservatives with animosity. So a liberal would listen to a rap album like to pimp a butterfly by kendrik lamar and would talk about the wrongs African Americans have had to deal with as a result of discrimination. Meanwhile conservatives would listen to the same album and would decry the disrespect shown to police officers in songs like 'Alright' and that we are thugs or that they need to keep themselves in check. The thing is, both of them are right I just don't like how either of them talk about it. It is undeniable that the vast majority of African Americans did not choose to be in the situation they are in. Life dealt them a rather bad hand and they had no choice in choosing that hand. But news flash, fife is not fair, you do not get to pick the cards you were dealt but you do get to choose how to use it. And I am ashamed that too many members of my black community have chosen to use their hand so badly. This HAS to be a factor when we discuss this. To pretend like this is strictly in the mind of the indies is to be disingenuous when trying to tackle the issue. Now of course statistics is on my side when I say most of African Americans are chill but going back to my psychology bit, the bad get's weighed much more than the good. Especially when, as you pointed out, the bad seems to be all the media cares about.
I have heard the same thing from some AMP girls (not all, but some). They typically avoid the gory details, but in the case of the South Asians (Indian, Pakis) the issues seems to be poor tipping (even non-payment) and bad body odor. In the case of AAs, it can be tipping issues and/or perceived bad behavior.
Why does the same thing not happen with Whites? Probably because Whites are so large a percentage of the AMP customer base that it would be economic suicide to reject customers just for being White. Also, a large percentage of Whites are not problematic; their business model would fail otherwise. I'm sure individual White men who exhibit bad qualities are likewise banned. However, unlike the other minority groups, Whites usually get the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes this is called "White privilege". Much as I don't like that term, it fits sometimes.
Indies are obviously different from AMPs. They are usually totally alone with the client and much more vulnerable, so they have to be a lot more careful. One wrong decision could end them. Looked at from that perspective, it's hard to criticize them for not following their gut. Any man (White or otherwise) who seems off on the phone or texting will be rejected. Indies will pretend not to be home if they don't like the looks of the person who shows up. It's a snap decision based on very superficial characteristics.
This may sound racist to some, but my best advice to AAs would be to look & act as non-threatening as possible and maybe offer to pay up front. Try to put their provider's mind at ease. If that sounds unreasonable, then look for someone more accommodating.
Is it fair that AAs may have to do this and Whites don't? No, its not. But life isn't always fair.
Why does the same thing not happen with Whites? Probably because Whites are so large a percentage of the AMP customer base that it would be economic suicide to reject customers just for being White. Also, a large percentage of Whites are not problematic; their business model would fail otherwise. I'm sure individual White men who exhibit bad qualities are likewise banned. However, unlike the other minority groups, Whites usually get the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes this is called "White privilege". Much as I don't like that term, it fits sometimes.
Indies are obviously different from AMPs. They are usually totally alone with the client and much more vulnerable, so they have to be a lot more careful. One wrong decision could end them. Looked at from that perspective, it's hard to criticize them for not following their gut. Any man (White or otherwise) who seems off on the phone or texting will be rejected. Indies will pretend not to be home if they don't like the looks of the person who shows up. It's a snap decision based on very superficial characteristics.
This may sound racist to some, but my best advice to AAs would be to look & act as non-threatening as possible and maybe offer to pay up front. Try to put their provider's mind at ease. If that sounds unreasonable, then look for someone more accommodating.
Is it fair that AAs may have to do this and Whites don't? No, its not. But life isn't always fair.
Well said. I am a strong advocate of realpolitik so your statements on how African Americans should behave is not something I view as racist, it's just a pragmatic assessment on what it would take to appease their fears. While I would NEVER advocate for this on a day to day basis (because how I dress, walk, or talk should not decide, for example, whether a cop pulls me over, only how I act should) we have to just understand that, as I keep saying, fear is the mind killer. Being passive and non-threatening may very well help these indies, who are in charge of their own safety, to become more trusting towards you. In conclusion, as you said yourself: life is not fair. Given that, what you recommend is the best of the worst options so far to help mitigate this problem.
First of all there are racists and bigots in every group of people. No one race has a monopoly on racism and bigotry. Group A will say group B are the most racist and group B will say group A is the most racist. It would be difficult to find anyone in a multiracial society who has not been a victim of racism and bigotry.
Second It might not all be due to racism. Even some AA providers say no black men or "I love (usually with a heart) white boys". I've even come across a few white providers who say they prefer non whites though admittedly very rarely. A few providers told me some black guys gave them counterfeit money. It's a shame this might ruin it for others but the concern is understandable.
Third nobody can see every provider they'd like to see unless I guess they are wealthy. There are plenty I'd like to see but can't afford because of their rates or because I can only afford to hobby rarely. I know it's different than being turned down because of race but the point is we all have limitations on whom we can see. I'm sure there are Indies or agencies or amps or aamps who will see all races.
Second It might not all be due to racism. Even some AA providers say no black men or "I love (usually with a heart) white boys". I've even come across a few white providers who say they prefer non whites though admittedly very rarely. A few providers told me some black guys gave them counterfeit money. It's a shame this might ruin it for others but the concern is understandable.
Third nobody can see every provider they'd like to see unless I guess they are wealthy. There are plenty I'd like to see but can't afford because of their rates or because I can only afford to hobby rarely. I know it's different than being turned down because of race but the point is we all have limitations on whom we can see. I'm sure there are Indies or agencies or amps or aamps who will see all races.
The reason why some Black Women pros don't see black Men is 1.) They have black bfs and or pimps when some BP girls and such and their pimps or bf don't want them seeing black guys. 2.) They say black dudes is sometimes more difficult. 3.) one girl told me she would rather not cause odds are he has a bigger dick than a caucasian has a bigger dick.
Kinda ashamed I never thought about it from the other prospective. I often read ads from providers that list a preference - and thought well she is not not LE because they would not be able to say anything racial.
Like I said, wrong on my part as using it as a tool to feel comfortable that it wasn’t LE. But yea now looking at it from another prospective- I was kinda an ass for not thinking about what others deal with. Just being honest
Like I said, wrong on my part as using it as a tool to feel comfortable that it wasn’t LE. But yea now looking at it from another prospective- I was kinda an ass for not thinking about what others deal with. Just being honest
Several of the white providers I see say that they have more issues with white men than any other group by definition.
They also mention that black men expect more out of sessions and are more vocal when they’re not pleased. I think some fear of not meeting expectations.
And then there’s the issue/myth about size and girth. I once had a provider ask how big I was before she agreed to see me, lol. I undersold, finessed the deed and now she’s one of my faves. She asked me to be gentle to start but now she lets me have it anyway I want. Funny though- she told she was initially afraid that a big schlong would stretch her out and smaller guys wouldn’t be able to touch the walls.
The justifications are varied and some are blatantly racist. There’s one S. Philly Indy massage girl who doesn’t see black men because she had “2” bad encounters and feels uncomfortable. In the hobby life is it possible she had bad encounters with a few white men? Absolutely. One former provider told me confidentially that this person is absolutely racist and uses this rationale as an excuse. What’s worse is that her screening process involved requesting your ID. If you provided it and she refused to see you because of your race, not much you could say cause she had all of your pertinent details. Glad I asked more question before I decided to not provide that info.
Some you offer rationalizations to console those affected while at the same time benefitting from your skin color. That’s cool cause some of you also have racist tendencies or underlying bias.
One thing I do know is that for many of the providers deep in this game with no other skills, supply and demand kicks in and they become more flexible when the cash dries up cause the tits begin to sag or they no longer are classified as a spinner. Emptying pockets equals open mindedness. Just my two cents. 25 years in the game.
They also mention that black men expect more out of sessions and are more vocal when they’re not pleased. I think some fear of not meeting expectations.
And then there’s the issue/myth about size and girth. I once had a provider ask how big I was before she agreed to see me, lol. I undersold, finessed the deed and now she’s one of my faves. She asked me to be gentle to start but now she lets me have it anyway I want. Funny though- she told she was initially afraid that a big schlong would stretch her out and smaller guys wouldn’t be able to touch the walls.
The justifications are varied and some are blatantly racist. There’s one S. Philly Indy massage girl who doesn’t see black men because she had “2” bad encounters and feels uncomfortable. In the hobby life is it possible she had bad encounters with a few white men? Absolutely. One former provider told me confidentially that this person is absolutely racist and uses this rationale as an excuse. What’s worse is that her screening process involved requesting your ID. If you provided it and she refused to see you because of your race, not much you could say cause she had all of your pertinent details. Glad I asked more question before I decided to not provide that info.
Some you offer rationalizations to console those affected while at the same time benefitting from your skin color. That’s cool cause some of you also have racist tendencies or underlying bias.
One thing I do know is that for many of the providers deep in this game with no other skills, supply and demand kicks in and they become more flexible when the cash dries up cause the tits begin to sag or they no longer are classified as a spinner. Emptying pockets equals open mindedness. Just my two cents. 25 years in the game.