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The monger experience: race relations, community, and obligations

phantomkid

The Child Whom God Forsook
Messages: 49
Reviews: 9
Joined
#1
This has been a very bad week. I had five different indies reject me during the screening process because of my race. To the many of you who helped me connect with these ladies, NO NAMES should be mentioned. In fact, I would like that rule of no names to be here for anyone who replies to this. I am not interested in a flame war, witch hunt, or public shaming. This is meant to be a civil discussion on experiences people have had and any solutions that anyone has come up with. I will have my experience down below along with some questions. These questions are open to everyone since I think we all have some different insights we can give.

To me it seems that there are two reasons why indies say no to non-whites. The first reason is because of ‘personal choice’ as they say. In other words, they choose to not service non-whites strictly as a point of preference. Now I don’t want to be too dismissive about this rational, but I don’t really think it holds water. From a purely economic perspective if you are in the services industry the only color you should see is green and whoever provides the green, assuming all else equal of course (e.g. respectful, pass screening process, have actual money, etc.), should be just as valid as any other person. Economics though is a social science theorem predicated on the idea of rational minds. In other words, if people were perfectly rational individuals what I just said before would be the case. We all know that they are not. Meaning there must be another factor that is causing them to say no, an irrational factor to lead them to their ‘personal choice’. And that cause, I have found, is fear. Maybe because of watching too much breaking bad or bad tv stations these indies have become afraid of non-whites and want to avoid doing business with them. This is the more annoying one since that fear makes everyone worse off. The provider makes less money, the monger has less options, and everyone wastes time trying to find the right match.

The second reason is experience. Three of the indie women I talked too cited previous bad experience as their reason for not doing business with non-whites. Now this one I am a lot more sensitive to even if I still at the end disagree. We have a natural instinct to equate behavior with physical attributes, its basic human psychology and it is a painfully biased habit of ours at that. So, two bad experiences with black clients might lead to an indie saying no to future black clients. Meanwhile five bad experiences with white clients (or whatever the race of the indie is) may not lead to the same result. Again, and I really want to emphasize this: THIS IS NOT A CONCIOUS CHOICE. This is the human brain at its worst, a machine which spent millennia learning to quickly equate anything that does not look like you as being some sort of dangerous is not going to be able to quickly acclimate to the last few decades of social change. I get that and even more I feel for the women who have been in any way wronged by a fellow monger, regardless of their race.

So, my questions: what can be done about this? How does someone convince someone else to not allow their baser instincts to take root? Should we even try? Do we as a community have some sort of role to play in keeping our fellow mongers in check? Should we warn indies on the notoriety of a fellow member if we don’t think he is safe? Should we forewarn members if an indie does not take on certain clients? Or should we not play any role as a jury towards the private interactions of two individuals? Finally, is it fair for indies to reject men strictly because of their race? I obviously don’t think so, but I am clearly biased. I just don’t think that the worst of us should define all of us. Thoughts?
 

Wayne1250

Review Contributor
Messages: 10,835
Reviews: 92
Joined
#2
I am sure this will bring out some worthy discussion. There is one thing to be said about our review sites, and that is for the most part we are all colorless because of our concealed idenity. At least until we get to know members a little more through private conversations or actually meeting each other in real life. Too bad we still don't have a colorless world yet,

It will be interesting where this discussion goes. Just like politics and religion it is difficult to solve all of the problems on a board like this, but it is well worth sharing ideas.and experiences.
 

Uniquelyme

Review Contributor
Messages: 7,746
Reviews: 162
Joined
#4
Your first problem is contained in your first paragraph. After that I skimmed through the rest of your post.

While the pros do love money. They have the right to choose. They arent robots if they don't want to fuck a Black Man an Indian Man a Chinese Man etc. That is their right, trying to change that is off.

Best you can do is give them good references have other pros vouch for you. Then let what happens happen. So many pros around just move on.
 

Uniquelyme

Review Contributor
Messages: 7,746
Reviews: 162
Joined
#6
At the risk of being all inclusive, how would we feel if the girl said, "I don't do White Guys", or "I don't like circumsized penises", or "I hate hairy men" and "all green or purple boys are out too".

Anyway they do have the right to be selective.
I would move on. Never in my life have I had this need of scarcity when it comes to Women. This is why they act the way they act. They have this feeling of many options. I have the same. And so do many hobbyists. They have many options at least if not in regular dating in hobbying.
 

findinit

Registered Member
Messages: 639
Reviews: 7
Joined
#8
Their personal preference = racism

Their 'experience' = confirmation bias for their racism.

What can be done about it? Not a damn thing. Just move on to the ladies who are not racist. There are plenty.

Disregard the racists who will inevitably flood into this thread defending personal preference and experience. (see above)
 

dancingpink

Registered Member
Messages: 124
Reviews: 25
Joined
#10
I was once with a quite well known girl at univercity who had huge dogs--you may already guess who that is.
Anyway, pass the screening over the phone, showed up and paid upfront, then notice she was very unfriendly and robotic, like I am trying to make out with a 140lb bag of patato. I ask what is wrong, she said I dont like asian kids.
Excuse me?
 

phantomkid

The Child Whom God Forsook
Messages: 49
Reviews: 9
Joined
#11
Your first problem is contained in your first paragraph. After that I skimmed through the rest of your post.

While the pros do love money. They have the right to choose. They arent robots if they don't want to fuck a Black Man an Indian Man a Chinese Man etc. That is their right, trying to change that is off.

Best you can do is give them good references have other pros vouch for you. Then let what happens happen. So many pros around just move on.
Your points are well taken @Uniquelyme. I have two counters, one for each post. For this first post, I think we should all be careful in trying to give simple answers to complex problems and mindsets. You are saying that a woman not wanting to sleep with members of other races is her choice and to deny her that is 'off'. I am saying there has to be a reason for that choice and the reason matters more than the choice itself. For example, one indie I talked with explained that she works out of her apartment in a majority white neighborhood. With things being sketchy as it is with her having lots of men come in and out it would only be worse if non-white men were added into the mix. That explanation made perfect sense to me and, more importantly, it was completely empty of malice or blame shifting. It was of course the exact same result (and I don't deny that she may have lied to make me feel better) but the reason was sound and not this vague notion of 'personal choice'. If you read my full second paragraph you can see my thoughts on this idea of personal choice.
 

phantomkid

The Child Whom God Forsook
Messages: 49
Reviews: 9
Joined
#12
I would move on. Never in my life have I had this need of scarcity when it comes to Women. This is why they act the way they act. They have this feeling of many options. I have the same. And so do many hobbyists. They have many options at least if not in regular dating in hobbying.
This one is for you @Uniquelyme and you as well @Wayne1250 It's easy to dismiss these sorts of occurrences if it's an isolated issue. Much harder to do it if that's something you experienced every day of your life. I can't speak for other people, but I grew up in an all-white neighborhood and had to deal with all the nonsense there in. Labeled as a thug, repeatedly stopped by the local police for the pettiest reasons and having my prom date reject me because her parents wanted her to go with a white guy. Now except for the cop business (which I just can't excuse) we could easily place what happened to me as a 'personal choice'. People 'choose' to see me some way. People 'choose' to want someone else of a different race take their daughter to prom. I don't deny that it is a choice, just like I don't deny that the women have a right to make any choices they want. My question is: at what point do these actions reach past the point of 'personal preference' and into the realm of malice, discrimination, and (dare I say) racism? And then the obvious question after that, does it matter? Afterall this is not a very… open let’s say hobby so expecting any anti-discrimination aspects to exist may be my naïveté rearing its ugly head again. But any ways, my point being, when you have this happen to you all your life, its not so easy to dismiss it when you think you can do something about it.
 

phantomkid

The Child Whom God Forsook
Messages: 49
Reviews: 9
Joined
#13
Their personal preference = racism

Their 'experience' = confirmation bias for their racism.

What can be done about it? Not a damn thing. Just move on to the ladies who are not racist. There are plenty.

Disregard the racists who will inevitably flood into this thread defending personal preference and experience. (see above)
Do you have some experiences you want to share @findinit? I can see some hurt in that post of yours my guy.
 

phantomkid

The Child Whom God Forsook
Messages: 49
Reviews: 9
Joined
#14
I was once with a quite well known girl at univercity who had huge dogs--you may already guess who that is.
Anyway, pass the screening over the phone, showed up and paid upfront, then notice she was very unfriendly and robotic, like I am trying to make out with a 140lb bag of patato. I ask what is wrong, she said I dont like asian kids.
Excuse me?
Don't leave me in suspense @dancingpink what did you do next??
 

Swiggen

Registered Member
Messages: 246
Reviews: 8
Joined
#15
Your points are well taken @Uniquelyme. I have two counters, one for each post. For this first post, I think we should all be careful in trying to give simple answers to complex problems and mindsets. You are saying that a woman not wanting to sleep with members of other races is her choice and to deny her that is 'off'. I am saying there has to be a reason for that choice and the reason matters more than the choice itself. For example, one indie I talked with explained that she works out of her apartment in a majority white neighborhood. With things being sketchy as it is with her having lots of men come in and out it would only be worse if non-white men were added into the mix. That explanation made perfect sense to me and, more importantly, it was completely empty of malice or blame shifting. It was of course the exact same result (and I don't deny that she may have lied to make me feel better) but the reason was sound and not this vague notion of 'personal choice'. If you read my full second paragraph you can see my thoughts on this idea of personal choice.
Another thoughtful post. OP is obviously a highly educated and thoughtful man looking for some insights. Unfortunately I think findinit’s post reduces all these speculations to the present reality. Racism is a base instinct as the author admits. It is overcome only through a slow painful evolution of civilization with change of attitudes and laws. One observation I would make is that this activity is illegal so the normal correction of civil rights is absent. Consequently the providers can limit the “services” any way they choose. Not saying it’s right just it is what it is.
 

findinit

Registered Member
Messages: 639
Reviews: 7
Joined
#17
Do you have some experiences you want to share @findinit? I can see some hurt in that post of yours my guy.
Experiences to share? None that you have not already had yourself or will not inevitably have at some point. You are wasting your time trying to have an 'all points of view are valid' conversation on race here.

Racism is prevalent. That includes sex workers and these forum posters. There is nothing you can do about it besides call it out and move on. Once a girl tried that with me and I called her, accurately, a racist cunt. Amazingly she warmed up to me after that but I was so over it by then. I don't even want to be around people like that much less have them jerking me off. Her response said more about female pyschology than race.
 

phantomkid

The Child Whom God Forsook
Messages: 49
Reviews: 9
Joined
#18
Well...with the huge dog watching me, I walked away politely. What else I can do.
I did ask money back directly. She was like NO, since quote she already dropped her pants. oh well.
Ouch. That's too bad man. But politely walking away (with or without the dog) is probably almost always the right decision. Many cases of racism, I have found, are borne of biases and stigmas about a particular race. Contrasting those biases in how you live your day to day life is a part of the process of ending racism. Not at a fundamental institutional level (for that I still have no cure) but at a interpersonal level.
 

Chiparlor

Has Decided to Walk on Earth.
Messages: 2,604
Reviews: 38
Joined
#19
If a customer went to a place of business that has a business license, the Civil Rights apply. I brought it up because I know a nice non-white man for ten years. I introduced him to try massage parlors. To my surprise, he was rejected by some parlors. I called a specific parlor and mentioned that it is in violation of the CR. The parlor gave in and served him. After that, he has been seeing a parlor with no problems. If we are talking about an Indie, that would be a different story.
 

Wayne1250

Review Contributor
Messages: 10,835
Reviews: 92
Joined
#20
This one is for you @Uniquelyme and you as well @Wayne1250 It's easy to dismiss these sorts of occurrences if it's an isolated issue. Much harder to do it if that's something you experienced every day of your life. I can't speak for other people, but I grew up in an all-white neighborhood and had to deal with all the nonsense there in. Labeled as a thug, repeatedly stopped by the local police for the pettiest reasons and having my prom date reject me because her parents wanted her to go with a white guy. Now except for the cop business (which I just can't excuse) we could easily place what happened to me as a 'personal choice'. People 'choose' to see me some way. People 'choose' to want someone else of a different race take their daughter to prom. I don't deny that it is a choice, just like I don't deny that the women have a right to make any choices they want. My question is: at what point do these actions reach past the point of 'personal preference' and into the realm of malice, discrimination, and (dare I say) racism? And then the obvious question after that, does it matter? Afterall this is not a very… open let’s say hobby so expecting any anti-discrimination aspects to exist may be my naïveté rearing its ugly head again. But any ways, my point being, when you have this happen to you all your life, its not so easy to dismiss it when you think you can do something about it.
I understand your pain from things that happened ti you in the past. More and more interracial and same sex relationships these days. I have the whole mixed bag as neiborghs, we just need to keep on trucking, eventually we will get to our destination.

I have a prejudice too, it's people that are just not good. We have to judge individuals for who they are.

We'll get there...
 
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