Have you ever fallen in love with a provider?

[Blixen]

I don't get this or why you'd be content to live as a self-described hypocrite. One of the most important qualities or values a person can have is his integrity, which means not doing things, especially habitually, that you consider wrong.

Oh brother.
Must be nice to live a life of perfect equanimity and zero contradiction.
Please skip the dime store moral lessons, we’re all adults here, and many of us are married. We’re therefore cheating with sex workers, we know it’s wrong, but we’ve made our separate peace with that.
That’s what I mean by being a hypocrite and I don’t need your didactic lessons to enlighten me.

However, there's no moral component or right and wrong about thoughts and desires that never leave your head. For one thing, thoughts and desires are involuntary. All that matters is whether or not you act on those thoughts and desires and whether or not those thoughts and desires "leak" into your outward behavior.

This is simplistic.
Thoughts and desires are profoundly altered by habits and lifestyle. Overindulging in porn for example, absolutely alters one’s thoughts, by suggesting sexual interpretations or innuendo in many non-sexual situations. This is the stuff of sex addiction.
The notion that you’re a “perfect gentleman” no matter what’s going on in your head so long as you keep it hidden is absurd; imagine a person constantly thinking about raping children but just barely keeping it to himself. A “perfect gentleman”? Of course not. A profoundly sick individual with a double life.

That’s an extreme example but I think a lot of guys suffer from degrees of sex and porn addiction that warp their perspectives around women. And as you put it, leak into their behavior.

 

[Zippy17]

Oh brother. Must be nice to live a life of perfect equanimity and zero contradiction. Please skip the dime store moral lessons, we’re all adults here, and many of us are married. We’re therefore cheating with sex workers, we know it’s wrong, but we’ve made our separate peace with that. That’s what I mean by being a hypocrite and I don’t need your didactic lessons to enlighten me.

You’re reacting like I called you a hypocrite, which I didn’t and which I wouldn’t have even brought up if you hadn’t referred to yourself that way. I’m not perfect by any means, and others might disagree about how I define right and wrong, but I’m not a hypocrite, because if I think something is wrong, I don’t do it. As that relates to marriage and this hobby, I’d never have gotten married if I hadn’t met a woman who was OK with open sexuality in marriage, because I never wanted to betray the trust of someone who’s supposed to be able to trust me completely, like that. It’s none of my business what others do in their marriages, but since you raised the issue, I don’t consider myself perfect, but I knew I never wanted to be banging other women behind the back of my wife, speaking strictly for myself, that is, and I knew I could never be monogamous.

This is simplistic. Thoughts and desires are profoundly altered by habits and lifestyle. Overindulging in porn for example, absolutely alters one’s thoughts, by suggesting sexual interpretations or innuendo in many non-sexual situations. This is the stuff of sex addiction.

I’m sorry, but I completely disagree. I’m sure that I’m hardly the only guy who watches porn practically daily without it having any effect whatsoever on my thoughts about women and sex. Nor do I think I’m special, so if I can do that, so can other guys who don’t have other “issues” that aren’t determined by their porn habits. Likewise, it’s also possible to be addicted to porn and/or sex with an endless list of providers without that affecting your thoughts about women or sex or anything else. Addiction is a totally separate issue, because you can be addicted to porn without it affecting your attitude or expectations or behavior; and you can have a horrible attitude towards women and sex without being addicted to anything.

The notion that you’re a “perfect gentleman” no matter what’s going on in your head so long as you keep it hidden is absurd; imagine a person constantly thinking about raping children but just barely keeping it to himself. A “perfect gentleman”? Of course not. A profoundly sick individual with a double life.

Again, I totally disagree. I removed the qualifier “just barely” because that implication makes it worse by suggesting the person in question might act on his internal desires, which isn’t what we’re discussing and disagreeing about. Someone who isn’t turned on by raping children deserves no “credit” for not doing it; but someone who actually does have that inexplicable horrible internal desire and who chooses to resist it because he knows it’s horrible and who lives his entire life never acting on it, precisely because he understands it’s horrific, deserves credit for that choice, not condemnation for an internal urge that he never chose to have in the first place and purposely avoided ever acting on. The worse and more extreme your urges, the more moral credit you deserve for never acting on them.

That’s an extreme example but I think a lot of guys suffer from degrees of sex and porn addiction that warp their perspectives around women. And as you put it, leak into their behavior.

Actually, that happens to be my usual example to illustrate this concept, but people tend to either over-react when I use that exact example, or they attack the premise of the analogy by accusing me of “equating” child rape with whatever urge we’re actually discussing. That’s why I chose not to use it here. However, It’s actually a perfect analogy, now that you brought it up, and I’ve already suggested the appropriate analysis above.

 

[Zippy17]

Thoughts and desires are profoundly altered by habits and lifestyle. Overindulging in porn for example, absolutely alters one’s thoughts, by suggesting sexual interpretations or innuendo in many non-sexual situations. This is the stuff of sex addiction.
The notion that you’re a “perfect gentleman” no matter what’s going on in your head so long as you keep it hidden is absurd

Let me provide another specific example that disproves this whole idea. While it's from my life, the point isn't that I think I'm special, but precisely the opposite: if I can do it, so can others.

Last year, I had a very nice dinner date with a very pretty nurse from SA. Towards the end of the dinner (at a restaurant that I'd purposely chosen because it was right across the street from a hotel that I like), she confided in me that she drove in from Brooklyn but told the garrage attendant that she'd probably be leaving her car all night. I had my overnight bag packed and with me. She wanted $500 for the night. I'd love to have fucked her...once or twice, but definitely no more than that, if I was paying anything close to $500 for it. Much of the porn I watch about twice a day is about tinder hookups and first-date blowjobs, because few things turn me on more than the idea of women who have random sex with strangers or relative strangers they just met. I might have some theories about why that turns me on, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. The point is that I've jerked off thousands of times to that kind of porn. At another point in the evening, this girl also told me that she's not looking to fuck anybody just once or twice and that she wants something regular with one person. All I'd have had to do after dinner was take her hand, tell her I had $500 on me (which I did), and walk across the street to the hotel and fuck her brains out. Instead, I just walked her to her garrage, gave her a hug, and went home, where I jerked off to her photos and some porn.

The point is that however many thousands of hours I've spent jerking off to scenes of first-date blow jobs and no matter how many providers who've sucked me off minutes after meeting me, none of that shit has any influence, whatsoever, on where I draw the lines between what I know is right or wrong when it comes to a real woman who just told me that she's not looking for what I want, and for what I could so easily have had with her, if I just kept my mouth shut and ignored what she just told me about what she was and wasn't looking for out of her SA dates.

 

[Enkidu_10]

Have you ever heard of the term intellectual masturbation?

 

[Enkidu_10]

i thought this was a thread about being in relationships with providers... lol

 

[Zippy17]

i thought this was a thread about being in relationships with providers... lol

Have you ever heard of the term intellectual masturbation?

Dude. You've posted about a dozen times in this thread, all of which I've copied here, except for one (ironically, off-topic) GIF that I'm not going to bother reposting. Please tell me which of your dozen or so posts you think are "on" the topic of falling in love with providers and/or actually add anything remotely meaningful to the thread topic. FYI, everything I've contributed here is either directly on-topic or part of a very natural tangent that's still related to the thread topic. Several other guys have messaged me with questions and/or to thank me for my contributions in this particular thread.

Why is it always the people who have absolutely nothing meaningful or relevant to add to threads, and who choose to post nothing but nonsense in them who are always so concerned with monitoring and commenting on what other people's posts they consider "off-topic"? You understand that you're perfectly free to ignore any posts that don't interest you or meet your intellectual standards, right? How 'bout you just post whatever you want and mind your own business when it comes to what other people post if you have nothing meaningful to add? "lol"

have fun getting your heart cut out lol

Probably already have feelings by the time that behavior/insecurity is introduced. Not always willing to throw away relationship for every imperfection/disagreement you find you find in a partner.

And the ones who want a way out but haven't stopped, generally have some crippling financial reason. Unless you can drop 6 figures on a stranger there really is no point

Was he mourning the loss of being able to go to this popular FS amp lol

I approve this message.

Yikes

They have tons of backups, lots of guys messaging them and wanting to go on dates, or even marry them. Even if they aren't interested it's kind of their job to talk to them. Really weird dynamic.

 

[Enkidu_10]

Yeah most of those messages are actually on topic about loving providers or short quips in response to other people...

 

[Zippy17]

Yeah most of those messages are actually on topic about loving providers or short quips in response to other people...

Yeah, well how 'bout you just do your little "quips," if that's how you want to contribute to threads and don't worry about how or what I post if my contributions don't interest you? Cool?

 

[Enkidu_10]

I don't have animosity. Let me simplify it for you. Have you ever been in love with a provider?

 

[Zippy17]

I don't have animosity. Let me simplify it for you. Have you ever been in love with a provider?

Great. That's what you consider an interesting thread...a yes-or-no question followed by posts that all just say "yes" or "no"? Fascinating reading. Again, how 'bout you just do you and if you don't like how I do me, just ignore my posts and mind your own business? You don't need any "animosity" to be an obnoxious fool. Obviously.

 

[Retired032824]

Ah the story of John. Yes I have, it was great while it lasted, very expensive and really hurt to discover that the illusion of love is not really love. It is simply a simp, putting up money for arm candy. Do it if you must, however it is fraught with danger.

 

[beatnik]

Ah the story of John. Yes I have, it was great while it lasted, very expensive and really hurt to discover that the illusion of love is not really love. It is simply a simp, putting up money for arm candy. Do it if you must, however it is fraught with danger.

Oh Uncle Wackadoodle, tell us that story about 50g’s and Dolph Lundgren one more time. We promise to go right to sleep afterwards.

 

[Enkidu_10]

Great. That's what you consider an interesting thread...a yes-or-no question followed by posts that all just say "yes" or "no"? Fascinating reading. Again, how 'bout you just do you and if you don't like how I do me, just ignore my posts and mind your own business? You don't need any "animosity" to be an obnoxious fool. Obviously.

Lol dude It's the title and topic of this thread you've hijacked to talk about how not creepy you are with women & that one time you almost got laid at work in the 90's. It's not even a yes or no question.

 

[Enkidu_10]

Ah the story of John. Yes I have, it was great while it lasted, very expensive and really hurt to discover that the illusion of love is not really love. It is simply a simp, putting up money for arm candy. Do it if you must, however it is fraught with danger.

Yeah if you are paying you have to remember its one sided.

 

[Retired032824]

Yeah if you are paying you have to remember its one sided.

there is no if - either you’re paying or it’s not happening -

Furthermore- you always pay - if you’re dating a real chick you’re paying -if you’re married , now you’re really paying lol

Batter Up!

 

[Enkidu_10]

there is no if - either you’re paying or it’s not happening -

Furthermore- you always pay - if you’re dating a real chick you’re paying -if you’re married , now you’re really paying lol

Batter Up!

I mean yeah if you are seeing them at work, money is probably changing hands even if it's just for the MMS. But it should be much easier to box that in as just being a customer.

I almost got paid the other day... I was given cash for something we ended up not buying and she didn't want to take the money back.

 

[Blixen]

You’re reacting like I called you a hypocrite, which I didn’t and which I wouldn’t have even brought up if you hadn’t referred to yourself that way.

Uh, no, I called myself a hypocrite.
If I seem irritated it’s due to your earnest but self-serving lectures on hypocrisy, neither needed nor asked for, along with your interminable stories illustrating your own gallantry!

I strongly suspect that a more subtle and astute observer might find a few chinks in his own armor.

As to thoughts and addictions, to say that we have no control over our thoughts is simplistic… but I’m repeating myself.
As an old acquaintance in fossil fuels used to say, if you don’t strike oil in 15 minutes: stop boring.

 

[Zippy17]

Uh, no, I called myself a hypocrite.

Exactly, which is why you shouldn't be offended that I made a reference to that or to the fact that I try my best not to be one.

If I seem irritated it’s due to your earnest but self-serving lectures on hypocrisy, neither needed nor asked for, along with your interminable stories illustrating your own gallantry!

My stories are specific examples of the points that I'm trying to make. I practice exactly what I preach. I'm just trying to have a conversation about the issues involved, and I'm expressing my positions respectfully, except towards anybody who feels the need to be intentionally insulting, especially while announcing that he has "no animosity" despite his obnoxious sarcasm and snarkiness. With respect to you, I tried to provide specific examples from my own life that directly contradict your argument that watching porn necessarily changes someone's perspective on sex and/or women.

As an old acquaintance in fossil fuels used to say, if you don’t strike oil in 15 minutes: stop boring.

If you don't want to continue the discussion, that's fine; but if you do, you need to address that point and not just continue repeating your original premise and your characterization that it's "simplistic" to say that we have no control over our thoughts and desires. What kinds of thoughts and desires (as opposed to affirmative beliefs) do you think we can control? How do you know that watching porn changes other people's perspectives, when, at most, all you can do is speak for yourself, just as I've spoken for myself.

I strongly suspect that a more subtle and astute observer might find a few chinks in his own armor.

Shoot your best shot.

As to thoughts and addictions, to say that we have no control over our thoughts is simplistic… but I’m repeating myself.

Yes, you're repeating your original statement, but without addressing the counterargument or offering any explanation, whatsoever, as to how it's "simplistic" or how anybody can possibly be in control of his thoughts and desires.

 

[Sadluckclub21]

If u got it free she felt a connection. Don't let people tell you otherwise. To the extent that is a whole other discussion.

Actually, that is not the case. I have hung out with them many times and hear them talk as a group, and they tend to treat it as a VIP situation. It is all business. Their emotions are non-existent. The only thing that motivates them is the money. In the end, many of them have no intention of staying, but making enough money and returning to the homeland.

 

[Black_equus]

Actually, that is not the case. I have hung out with them many times and hear them talk as a group, and they tend to treat it as a VIP situation. It is all business. Their emotions are non-existent. The only thing that motivates them is the money. In the end, many of them have no intention of staying, but making enough money and returning to the homeland.

It's never a good idea to make sweeping generalizations based on few anecdotal data points.

And suggesting that foreign born sex workers have no feelings reduces them to sub human.

Yes, they might be making decisions based on a horizon line we can not see, but at the end of the day they are people with a full range of human experiences. And some are capable and available for connections that go deeper than transactional.