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Rude Clients at AMPs
- Thread starter lokithewolf
- Start date
Guys, opinions are like you know what, and everbody has one. Pretty damn arrogant to think that yours are any better than anyone elses.
Equus is for his kind and I am for my kind. I fail to see anything "obtuse" in that. But I am sure the social scientists here will try to point it out. It will fall on deaf ears, I assure you. Have a good one.
Equus is for his kind and I am for my kind. I fail to see anything "obtuse" in that. But I am sure the social scientists here will try to point it out. It will fall on deaf ears, I assure you. Have a good one.
I've really tried to stay out of this passion topic and only correct some data-driven inaccuracies on this thread. But let me say this on behalf of multiple brown LE childhood friends. The NYC LE are not institutionally racist. It is a distracting argument as they are simply not that organized. I will also say on behalf of the overwhelming statistical evidence, people of color are stopped and questioned more. If a brown person gets stopped they are significantly more likely to get arrested for the same crime. Incarceration isn't tied to these overly simplistic media narratives like "how did the brown person act when stopped" or whether "gangs" are involved. It is the fact that browner neighborhoods are policed more and people in those areas are stopped more. NYC is better than most, but you really need to separate levels of individual predisposition to suspect a person and stop them as special little snowflakes that nobody can control. The training LE receives, the neighborhood they patrol (often the worse neighborhoods for higher pay), and the repeated reenforcement of negative perceptions they are exposed to by vocation in those neighborhoods drives LE performance. The latter point drives LE expectations and subsequent behavior as you generally don't invite LE over for afternoon tea. Their exposure to problems in a limited geography where they are patrolling, creates downstream discriminatory effects in the justice system.
Here's a not-so-quick personal story.
There is a difference in my experiences driving better than average cars through different states and even different neighborhoods within those states. This is especially true when the car is fresh off the lot.
I recall being stopped once when I was wearing casual clothing early in the morning in Dix Hills. Local LE asked how did I get such a nice car. I said "simple...college" and I smiled.
That same response got my license run and more intense questioning when I was driving through Eastern Brooklyn. Brooklyn LE even asked me the same question again (common LE tactic to see how your story changes). I said "Like I said...college" and I identified my alma mater and said "we tend to do okay". He still had a hard time accepting it. Based on knowing their protocols (which is the real root of the problems with LE confronting civilians), he seemed convinced he would find something.
He asked if he "should" search the car, I said "that usually requires probable cause" (deliberately not asking him "why" or "what" was his). He asked if I was a lawyer, and I let him politely know "No, I just deal with legal matters professionally quite often". After a few more work related questions where I talked about concepts he didn't quite understand (another tactic to see if you get nervous), he came back to his implied request to search my vehicle.
Him and his partner subtlety threatened to impound my vehicle and how unfortunate it would be if it got scratched up in the process. I said, "I certainly hope that won't be the case." He asked if I was refusing to comply. I said "not at all, but we both know the legal standard for search here" and "I'm okay with them doing their job". They said "okay, your choice" and they waited for a response. I gave none.The lyrics Jay-Z's "99 Problems" came to mind to see what I would actually be accused of (like doing 55mph in a 54mph zone).
The incident ended about 25 minutes later when they kept trying to run my plates, license, registration and see if my disposition would change (another tactic). I carefully asked whether it was okay to reach into my back pocket for my wallet or to get my registration from the glove compartment all white the patrol buddy would shine a flashlight on a sunny day to see if they would see anything in my impeccably neat vehicle (see my comment earlier about messy cars and LE stops).
They asked about the search again when I calmlyI declined. They asked "why not?". Instead if answering, "why?" I repeated my retort about us "both knowing the legal standard" and adding "that's all". Their trained tactic is to keep asking until you give new info that will allow them to engage. Deliberately shirt calm sentences about "College", "Legal standard", "2-second job title", 15-second "how my job works" is all they got from me no matter how often the questions kept coming with my hands clearly visible and tiring on the steering wheel.
They eventually issued me a ticket for running a red light on a street that didn't have any lights as I'm sure they needed to justify my 25+minute ordeal. In fact, that road has about a mile of stop signs. I fought it via the mail. The aggressing officer for the first part of the story was black and the one that kept trying to cooerce the search and subtlety threatening to impound my vehicle was white. The song that comes to mind here is Ice Cube's "Good Cop Bad Cop".
I wish I could say that those were my only stories. I have about 2 dozen more. This was a milder story. I'll skip the weapons drawn stories as everyone gets super polarized on these topics. I'm alive and have garnered major apologies from LE, often the partner of the loose cannon that swears I look like someone else that is dangerous.
From the way I type on this board, do I sound dangerous? I won't send a photo, but do you envision that I look dangerous?
The only discriminatory correlation I've personally experienced in NY State is that I get stopped more in rougher neighborhoods because LE has greater suspicion there. My Black, White, Latin, Asian, and other Immigrant LE friends and their parents point to the neighborhood where I get stopped. Pro Tip: Don't program your GPS for shortest rout. Make it favor major roads.
When I leave the state, I think nicer vehicles draw suspicion because I'm in a different socioeconomic grouping than LE is used to dealing with. I rarely encounter problems in the downtowns of LA, Chicago, or DC with nicer rentals, but their poorer suberbs feel compelled to check me out. I'm clearly an anomaly to them. The same holds true from Maine to Florida even though I have a spotless driving record.
I'll end story time now.
Uncle Bit just doesn't understand why different treatment based on appearanceis so hard for the children to accept.
All you guys make more at the same job than women on average. You can't deny that difference without taking a pay cut. The women on the left and the right would agree as they unite on this issue and they don't claim a "victimization" mindset. They just ask us to acknowledge history and make it right. McKinsey Consulting has reported on this inequity for years an I certainly hope nobody wants to refute their decade plus of global data. Debra Dougan didn't deny that she worked in a 'boys club', but she claims that she didn't tolerate what she perceived when she took the helm as CEO. We'll see how her EEOC case turns out, but she describes a pattern we keep seeing.
Is it that much of a stretch to move from gender inequities to think that browness inequities can make a difference in LE or other people's behavior?
Here's a not-so-quick personal story.
There is a difference in my experiences driving better than average cars through different states and even different neighborhoods within those states. This is especially true when the car is fresh off the lot.
I recall being stopped once when I was wearing casual clothing early in the morning in Dix Hills. Local LE asked how did I get such a nice car. I said "simple...college" and I smiled.
That same response got my license run and more intense questioning when I was driving through Eastern Brooklyn. Brooklyn LE even asked me the same question again (common LE tactic to see how your story changes). I said "Like I said...college" and I identified my alma mater and said "we tend to do okay". He still had a hard time accepting it. Based on knowing their protocols (which is the real root of the problems with LE confronting civilians), he seemed convinced he would find something.
He asked if he "should" search the car, I said "that usually requires probable cause" (deliberately not asking him "why" or "what" was his). He asked if I was a lawyer, and I let him politely know "No, I just deal with legal matters professionally quite often". After a few more work related questions where I talked about concepts he didn't quite understand (another tactic to see if you get nervous), he came back to his implied request to search my vehicle.
Him and his partner subtlety threatened to impound my vehicle and how unfortunate it would be if it got scratched up in the process. I said, "I certainly hope that won't be the case." He asked if I was refusing to comply. I said "not at all, but we both know the legal standard for search here" and "I'm okay with them doing their job". They said "okay, your choice" and they waited for a response. I gave none.The lyrics Jay-Z's "99 Problems" came to mind to see what I would actually be accused of (like doing 55mph in a 54mph zone).
The incident ended about 25 minutes later when they kept trying to run my plates, license, registration and see if my disposition would change (another tactic). I carefully asked whether it was okay to reach into my back pocket for my wallet or to get my registration from the glove compartment all white the patrol buddy would shine a flashlight on a sunny day to see if they would see anything in my impeccably neat vehicle (see my comment earlier about messy cars and LE stops).
They asked about the search again when I calmlyI declined. They asked "why not?". Instead if answering, "why?" I repeated my retort about us "both knowing the legal standard" and adding "that's all". Their trained tactic is to keep asking until you give new info that will allow them to engage. Deliberately shirt calm sentences about "College", "Legal standard", "2-second job title", 15-second "how my job works" is all they got from me no matter how often the questions kept coming with my hands clearly visible and tiring on the steering wheel.
They eventually issued me a ticket for running a red light on a street that didn't have any lights as I'm sure they needed to justify my 25+minute ordeal. In fact, that road has about a mile of stop signs. I fought it via the mail. The aggressing officer for the first part of the story was black and the one that kept trying to cooerce the search and subtlety threatening to impound my vehicle was white. The song that comes to mind here is Ice Cube's "Good Cop Bad Cop".
I wish I could say that those were my only stories. I have about 2 dozen more. This was a milder story. I'll skip the weapons drawn stories as everyone gets super polarized on these topics. I'm alive and have garnered major apologies from LE, often the partner of the loose cannon that swears I look like someone else that is dangerous.
From the way I type on this board, do I sound dangerous? I won't send a photo, but do you envision that I look dangerous?
The only discriminatory correlation I've personally experienced in NY State is that I get stopped more in rougher neighborhoods because LE has greater suspicion there. My Black, White, Latin, Asian, and other Immigrant LE friends and their parents point to the neighborhood where I get stopped. Pro Tip: Don't program your GPS for shortest rout. Make it favor major roads.
When I leave the state, I think nicer vehicles draw suspicion because I'm in a different socioeconomic grouping than LE is used to dealing with. I rarely encounter problems in the downtowns of LA, Chicago, or DC with nicer rentals, but their poorer suberbs feel compelled to check me out. I'm clearly an anomaly to them. The same holds true from Maine to Florida even though I have a spotless driving record.
I'll end story time now.
Uncle Bit just doesn't understand why different treatment based on appearanceis so hard for the children to accept.
All you guys make more at the same job than women on average. You can't deny that difference without taking a pay cut. The women on the left and the right would agree as they unite on this issue and they don't claim a "victimization" mindset. They just ask us to acknowledge history and make it right. McKinsey Consulting has reported on this inequity for years an I certainly hope nobody wants to refute their decade plus of global data. Debra Dougan didn't deny that she worked in a 'boys club', but she claims that she didn't tolerate what she perceived when she took the helm as CEO. We'll see how her EEOC case turns out, but she describes a pattern we keep seeing.
Is it that much of a stretch to move from gender inequities to think that browness inequities can make a difference in LE or other people's behavior?
@Bit
Your experiences are yours and I respect that you shared them here..
I have no comment on those things. I wish you all the best going forward.
You and I already know each others thoughts on the other stuff.
But..."gender inequities"???
OK. I'm out. Unwatching this thread.
Suffice to say I neither agree with the idea nor do I care about the data or the results.
IMO (as always) Females should be at staying at home for cooking, cleaning and sex. Society works better that way.
And yes, I say this as a guy who has never been married, never been engaged, never had a real (free) girlfriend and has never been on a free date.
Sure, resentment may (just may) play into my thought process on this.
But yeah...us unnatractive guys are entitled to our opinions too!
"Career women" can go kick rocks.
Your experiences are yours and I respect that you shared them here..
I have no comment on those things. I wish you all the best going forward.
You and I already know each others thoughts on the other stuff.
But..."gender inequities"???
OK. I'm out. Unwatching this thread.
Suffice to say I neither agree with the idea nor do I care about the data or the results.
IMO (as always) Females should be at staying at home for cooking, cleaning and sex. Society works better that way.
And yes, I say this as a guy who has never been married, never been engaged, never had a real (free) girlfriend and has never been on a free date.
Sure, resentment may (just may) play into my thought process on this.
But yeah...us unnatractive guys are entitled to our opinions too!
"Career women" can go kick rocks.
We know your views in this @AutomaticSlim and you have another thread in why you disagree with the mainstream on this one. I threw it out there as Women's Sufferage was a solid 100 years ago. It took that long to say we have inequity. Matters involving brownness are over 40 years behind that. I just hope it won't take as long for that one to be acknowledged.
Unfortunately my man you're out of touch.
All over Asia Women are now leading in income as well as the West.
It's a Woman's world now we just live in it....
Look at how Meghan Markle has Prince Harry completely under control. She was a high powered paralegal making millions as an actor in 'Suits'. Now she's worth at least 10x that. Wrested the Queen's precious grandbaby away. She's no Diana that's for sure... She's strong and Independent Bey Limoncello Canadian Queen Now.
GO GRRLLLLLL
All over Asia Women are now leading in income as well as the West.
It's a Woman's world now we just live in it....
Look at how Meghan Markle has Prince Harry completely under control. She was a high powered paralegal making millions as an actor in 'Suits'. Now she's worth at least 10x that. Wrested the Queen's precious grandbaby away. She's no Diana that's for sure... She's strong and Independent Bey Limoncello Canadian Queen Now.
GO GRRLLLLLL
Nothing new
We have been beaten down since Al Bundy from "Married....with children"
And unfortunately I am serious. Women have taken over. Look at college graduation and make vs female youth employment rates. Men are falling behind.
There is an inverse trend of female to male employment over the past 75 years now:
Men's wages are stagnant since the 80s adjusted for inflation, meanwhile while Women's have increased. And they still want free dates.
We have been beaten down since Al Bundy from "Married....with children"
And unfortunately I am serious. Women have taken over. Look at college graduation and make vs female youth employment rates. Men are falling behind.
There is an inverse trend of female to male employment over the past 75 years now:
Men's wages are stagnant since the 80s adjusted for inflation, meanwhile while Women's have increased. And they still want free dates.